|
|
 |
 |
FORUM |
|
> Browse and post on our forum |
|
|
|
 |
|
 |
|
Note: You must be registered in order to post a reply.
To register, click here. Registration is FREE!
|
| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| JimmyChoo |
Posted - 11 February 2011 : 09:46:12
Dear All,
I am at wits end and am glad I have found a place to share my feelings. This is my story and some questions.
In July last year I declared myself bankrupt for 45k of credit card, personal loans, pay day loans and cheque cashing loans debts incurred to finance a 2 year drug addiction. My road ruin started 3 years ago. For the last 12 years I worked very hard at a major international conglomerate climbing up the organisation with my last job before my bankruptcy being a very senior person in the organisation. I had it all...a good career, good friendships, lovely partner. £ years ago I was introduced to drugs, I never did drugs before and never was curious, I just happened one night at a party. That night my road to ruin started...in a matter of 3 years I blew all my savings, took out loans and credit cards to finance my habit. In July after a health scare [liver problems due to excessive drug use] and fearing that I was going to loose my job due a patchy track record [people in the company gave me the benefit of the doubt after concocted story after story on fake illnesses] I decided I wanted to come clean, get counselling and get out of my addiction problem. At this point I have very few friends left as drug addiction makes you tell the most terrible lies just to get a loan for your next "hit". My only luck is that my partner has stayed with through these turbulent years.
I started counselling and I am happy to say that all is going well.Part of my process of getting out of this "personal hell" I declared bankrupt July as I no longer had a job and could not keep up with the loan, credit card payments. During the BR process I have been very open and honest on my problems and how I got into trouble. I was advised to do so as the OR's appreciate this and will find out any lies in any case, I also used this honesty in my SOA as a cleansing act. Also the NHS, my doctor and counselling services have beeQUESTION 1: Did I do the right thing? There seems to be conflicting views on telling the full story to the OR - for example on BR due to Gambling only 20% on-line traceable spend and all that.
I am happy to say that things are going well with my drug counselling and therapy and I feel reborn again, things are looking up in life especially as my partner has found a new found love and trusts me a gain. I have 6 months to go for my Discharge and so far I have heard nothing on a possible BRO/BRU. The NHS, my doctor and counselling services have been written to the OR asking if I was fully aware of my actions during my drug use, all have confirmed I was an addict of mind-altering substance abuse.QUESTION 2 Any views on whether I will face a BRO/BRU? I have been open and honest at all times with the OR.
Before declaring bankruptcy and at the zenith of my drug use, to feed my daily habit of £300-£500 a day, I took out a few pay day loans and cheque cashing loans, knowing I could not pay these back - but that is the kind of crazy stuff one does to get their next "hit". QUESTION 3 Will this lead to a BRO/BRU?
QUESTION 4 - have I done the right thing?
I apologise for my ramblings and many questions - but it is great to be able to get this off my chest and share this. I only hope that others reading this in a similar situation take courage from the fact that they are not alone in their fears, concerns and feelings.
Regards Jimmy aka "The Choo"
|
| 15 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Bigal4787 |
Posted - 24 February 2011 : 15:11:10
Hi,
I am only one of several experts on this forum who can help, we all have different fields of experience and are all competent, I just happen to have worked as an examiner/investigator with the OR office.
First to avoid confusion, can you clarify who is posting please, I answered first to JimmyChoo, but then GaryCery, is this one and the same person, plus Jimmypennywise comes into it somewhere.
1. Nothing was said about the bankruptcy court, this is done to ensure your fitness to be interviewed again, which you will. However, if you declared yourself bankrupt you would have been to the bankruptcy court already, so there should be no question over your fitness to attend.
2. there would be no reason for the OR to require more evidence of your addiction, if the professionals involved in your treatment have already confirmed this.
3. Unless you're going to name your dealer as coroborrative evidence, not much.
4. Generally I was only too happy to receive calls from the cases I was dealing with, as it meant they were still complying and likely to go for an undertaking, although without going into detail about what lines of enquiry I was following, unless your case is with one of the special investigations sections.
As previously stated, in an undertaking you have the opportunity to see the text to raise any objections, to have it revised with wording that is agreeable to both parties.
Big Al
Insolvency examiner with the Insolvency service from April 2008 - July 2010.
If you need help completing SOA's(statement of affairs) or PIQ's(preliminary information questionnaire) if you've been declared bankrupt, or anything else and you're within 30 miles or so of Warrington, then please contact me via my contact details in the expert page for futher details"
|
| Garycery |
Posted - 24 February 2011 : 07:52:53
Hi Bigal,
Many thanks for your authoritative answerers, as you are the first person I talk to that can really reassure me on my worst fears. With your permission, I would like to ask some more questions.
1. My counsesellors have confirmed that I am fit enough to attend "court",I assume they meant bankruptcy court? So far I have heard nothing.
2. My medical file and the several counsellors who are treating me have confirmed that I am a recovering addict, will the Or seek more corroboration, and if so what could they seek as evidence?
3. No umbrage from my side on suggestion on hiding cash, it is a legitimate thing to think considering most of my transactions have been cash. Can you advise what the OR might do to further satisfy that indeed in my case it was spent on this evil substance and is not in a 3rd party account?
4. I called the ORs office to find out about my status but they advised me that it is not their policy to provide updates. Is there anything I can do to get an update? I guess it is best not to hassle them too much.
5. When it comes to the BRO/BRO text, is it legitimate and sympathetically looked at by the OR to suggest a softer text omitting drugs, so as to help me in my future employment?
Thanks for your answeres.
1. Corro
quote:
Originally posted by Bigal4787
Hi Gary,
in answer to your questions:
1.For the OR to take the investigation forward(and this applies to any investigation), they have to ascertain that you would be fit to be interviewed further if necessary, but also to coroborrate in this case the fact of a drug addiction. As the drug addiction is the main cause they have already contacted the agencies that would confirm this.
The other parties they would require information from,would be your creditors, banks and any other financial institutions to build up a picture of your financial activity during the period in question.
2. Unless your not co-operating on any matter there will be no need to suspend your discharge.
3.It's difficult to say if there would be any fraud charges, but unless you were running bogus finance schemes to obtain money from unsuspecting clients, then the only thing really is that of No realistic expectation of being able to pay creditors.
However, the only thing I would say, is that when in your case the majority of transactions were cash withdrawals, this then makes it extremely difficult to track or trace transactions, as the saying goes"follow the money", but in this case where? This is where coroborration of your narrative is needed, which I realise may be difficult especially with dealers and the like, otherwise to be honest(and don't take umbrage at this) the suspicion may be that there is money sitting in a third party account somewhere.
4.The AT team is the authorisations team in London, who review BRO/BRU applications, to decide whether it can proceed.
5. As I mentioned in my previous post, it is how the drug addiction affected your judgement and whether the AT team would consider this a factor whether or not to proceed, but remember drug addicts commit crime to feed their habits, and if apprehended do get charged and go to court, although part of the sentencing is to undergo drugs rehabilitation, so even though mind altering, the courts have still decided that it is possible to form the intention to do something to obtain drugs, so the same could be said in this case, although not criminal, your addiction would be a mitigating factor.
Overall though, I believe the best option you have,is to contact the examiner who is dealing with your case, and establish what if anything they intend to do, and at the same time ask if there is anything else that they need from you.
Also remember, if they are going down the route of a BRO, then if you agree to an undertaking, you get to preview the draft, after which you have 21 days to object about the content.
Big Al
Insolvency examiner with the Insolvency service from April 2008 - July 2010.
If you need help completing SOA's(statement of affairs) or PIQ's(preliminary information questionnaire) if you've been declared bankrupt, or anything else and you're within 30 miles or so of Warrington, then please contact me via my contact details in the expert page for futher details"
|
| Bigal4787 |
Posted - 23 February 2011 : 23:41:32
Hi Gary,
in answer to your questions:
1.For the OR to take the investigation forward(and this applies to any investigation), they have to ascertain that you would be fit to be interviewed further if necessary, but also to coroborrate in this case the fact of a drug addiction. As the drug addiction is the main cause they have already contacted the agencies that would confirm this.
The other parties they would require information from,would be your creditors, banks and any other financial institutions to build up a picture of your financial activity during the period in question.
2. Unless your not co-operating on any matter there will be no need to suspend your discharge.
3.It's difficult to say if there would be any fraud charges, but unless you were running bogus finance schemes to obtain money from unsuspecting clients, then the only thing really is that of No realistic expectation of being able to pay creditors.
However, the only thing I would say, is that when in your case the majority of transactions were cash withdrawals, this then makes it extremely difficult to track or trace transactions, as the saying goes"follow the money", but in this case where? This is where coroborration of your narrative is needed, which I realise may be difficult especially with dealers and the like, otherwise to be honest(and don't take umbrage at this) the suspicion may be that there is money sitting in a third party account somewhere.
4.The AT team is the authorisations team in London, who review BRO/BRU applications, to decide whether it can proceed.
5. As I mentioned in my previous post, it is how the drug addiction affected your judgement and whether the AT team would consider this a factor whether or not to proceed, but remember drug addicts commit crime to feed their habits, and if apprehended do get charged and go to court, although part of the sentencing is to undergo drugs rehabilitation, so even though mind altering, the courts have still decided that it is possible to form the intention to do something to obtain drugs, so the same could be said in this case, although not criminal, your addiction would be a mitigating factor.
Overall though, I believe the best option you have,is to contact the examiner who is dealing with your case, and establish what if anything they intend to do, and at the same time ask if there is anything else that they need from you.
Also remember, if they are going down the route of a BRO, then if you agree to an undertaking, you get to preview the draft, after which you have 21 days to object about the content.
Big Al
Insolvency examiner with the Insolvency service from April 2008 - July 2010.
If you need help completing SOA's(statement of affairs) or PIQ's(preliminary information questionnaire) if you've been declared bankrupt, or anything else and you're within 30 miles or so of Warrington, then please contact me via my contact details in the expert page for futher details"
|
| Garycery |
Posted - 23 February 2011 : 17:18:38
Hi Bigal,
I really appreciate the authoritative reply you have given me.
A few points to clarify. Indeed it was a derivative of cocaine! As I maintain to all my counsellors....I am the best testimony to the destructive power of drugs...I had a good social background..loving parents...good education and all the opportunities in life!
With regards to the gambling, this was a mis-typing caused by web page problems....what I meant to say was that if the OR can trace gambling as the cause due to 20% of cash being traceable due to online transactions....what does this mean for feeding my drugs habit...in terms of a BRO/BRU. As 100% of my on-line or bank transactions were cash withdrawals to feed my habit [less than £1000 was on credit card purchases for gifts for my dealer when I could not get cash], yes that is how sad an addiction can be...you end up paying for play stations and games for his kids to get your next hit.
Bigal, I know you will be busy, but perhaps you can help me understand a few voids and questions I have...
1. Can you advise in your experience what the OR will do beyond contacting the NHS and Drug counsellors?
2. Will the OR go beyond the 12 months of discharge? Will they suspend my auto discharge.
3.Will I face fraud charges or legal proceedings?
4. What or who is the AT TEAM?
5. My habit, which I have detailed on my SOA is generally recognised by the medical and research profession and is also well documented as being Mind Altering. How hard will it be for the Or to present my case.
IN THE end I want to pay for my mistakes and if a BRU is the payback, then I will accept his....the only thing I worry is about the language it will contain as "Drugs" are still a very strong negative social stigma and I am keen to move on...start a new life and start a new career save for a place to live and pay a lot of taxes. All I seek is a second chance...........I hope the OR will also see it this way...
Your comments are welcome!
quote:
Originally posted by Bigal4787
Hi,
I've read your initial post with interest, along with the replies. First, it's commendable that you decided to confront your addiction and do something positive about it through conselling and having a supportive partner, I'm presuming that with the sort of career you had that it was cocaine or a derivative that you became addicted to( stat - a majority of the banknotes in circulation in London are contaminated with cocaine).
I'd say it was the right thing to do, as if you hadn't and couldn't get credit, would you have turned to crime to feed it? You mentioned gambling, and that 20% was traceable online. Does this refer to you gambling, or something else? If some of your £45k was down to gambling, how much was, and if only 20% was traceable online, where was the rest gambled?
You have 6 months to go before discharge, and so far haven't heard anything from the OR about whether they are investigating further, in consideration of a BRO/BRU although the NHS, doctors and counselling services have been contacted by the OR, which indicates that the OR is investigating further.
As regards whether you will get a BRO/BRU, this all depends on the circumstances. On the face of it, you obtained credit with no realistic expectation of maitaining payments to feed your drugs habit, generally at the level you did, then this would incur a BRO/BRU. But what is put on the register, generally describes the way credit was obtained, but may not give details of how it was used. Gambling generally won't be as it isn't illegal, whereas using credit to fund a drugs habit which is illegal could be shown. However, if the restriction is a BRU(an undertaking) then you would be sent a draft of the restriction, and if there was something in it that you objected to,then you could ask the OR to remove or amend it to a more suitable text.
However, the key to whether you would receive a BRO/BRU probably lays in the information the NHS, doctors and counsellors have provided, in that as you were an addict of MIND ALTERING SUBSTANCES, you may not have been aware of your actions. Before the OR can obtain a BRO/BRU it must first be in the public interest(PI), and secondly the AT(authorisations team)in London must authorise it. If there is a doubt raised due to the possibility of a person being "not of sound mind" then a BRO/BRU could be in doubt, it will all be down to how the OR presents the case.
Big Al
Insolvency examiner with the Insolvency service from April 2008 - July 2010.
If you need help completing SOA's(statement of affairs) or PIQ's(preliminary information questionnaire) if you've been declared bankrupt, or anything else and you're within 30 miles or so of Warrington, then please contact me via my contact details in the expert page for futher details"
|
| Bigal4787 |
Posted - 23 February 2011 : 15:17:53
Hi,
I've read your initial post with interest, along with the replies. First, it's commendable that you decided to confront your addiction and do something positive about it through conselling and having a supportive partner, I'm presuming that with the sort of career you had that it was cocaine or a derivative that you became addicted to( stat - a majority of the banknotes in circulation in London are contaminated with cocaine).
I'd say it was the right thing to do, as if you hadn't and couldn't get credit, would you have turned to crime to feed it? You mentioned gambling, and that 20% was traceable online. Does this refer to you gambling, or something else? If some of your £45k was down to gambling, how much was, and if only 20% was traceable online, where was the rest gambled?
You have 6 months to go before discharge, and so far haven't heard anything from the OR about whether they are investigating further, in consideration of a BRO/BRU although the NHS, doctors and counselling services have been contacted by the OR, which indicates that the OR is investigating further.
As regards whether you will get a BRO/BRU, this all depends on the circumstances. On the face of it, you obtained credit with no realistic expectation of maitaining payments to feed your drugs habit, generally at the level you did, then this would incur a BRO/BRU. But what is put on the register, generally describes the way credit was obtained, but may not give details of how it was used. Gambling generally won't be as it isn't illegal, whereas using credit to fund a drugs habit which is illegal could be shown. However, if the restriction is a BRU(an undertaking) then you would be sent a draft of the restriction, and if there was something in it that you objected to,then you could ask the OR to remove or amend it to a more suitable text.
However, the key to whether you would receive a BRO/BRU probably lays in the information the NHS, doctors and counsellors have provided, in that as you were an addict of MIND ALTERING SUBSTANCES, you may not have been aware of your actions. Before the OR can obtain a BRO/BRU it must first be in the public interest(PI), and secondly the AT(authorisations team)in London must authorise it. If there is a doubt raised due to the possibility of a person being "not of sound mind" then a BRO/BRU could be in doubt, it will all be down to how the OR presents the case.
Big Al
Insolvency examiner with the Insolvency service from April 2008 - July 2010.
If you need help completing SOA's(statement of affairs) or PIQ's(preliminary information questionnaire) if you've been declared bankrupt, or anything else and you're within 30 miles or so of Warrington, then please contact me via my contact details in the expert page for futher details"
|
| debtinfo |
Posted - 22 February 2011 : 19:51:43
They do some times use slightly kinder language such as "the bankrupt was leading a life style far in excess of his income" or "the bankrupt took credit without any reasonable prospect of repaying" |
| JimmyPennywise |
Posted - 22 February 2011 : 19:30:15
Hi Debtinfo,
Thanks for your trusted expertise. I guess in my case it will be the case as in the SOA and interview I was very open and honest about it. I hope honesty will be regarded as a good show of intent.
rwgards,
J
quote:
Originally posted by debtinfo
There are no hard and fast rules as to what to put in, it would depend on the facts of the case but it is possible that drugs could be mentioned if that was the overwhelming cause
|
| debtinfo |
Posted - 22 February 2011 : 19:02:06
There are no hard and fast rules as to what to put in, it would depend on the facts of the case but it is possible that drugs could be mentioned if that was the overwhelming cause |
| JimmyPennywise |
Posted - 22 February 2011 : 18:36:38
Hi RHB & All,
So far my sampling has not yielded the mentioning of drugs, I am keen to put this all behind me, so hope it will not get mentioned!
quote:
Originally posted by RHB
No mention of drugs though on the random ones I've looked at.
|
| RHB |
Posted - 22 February 2011 : 18:25:38
No mention of drugs though on the random ones I've looked at. |
| JimmyPennywise |
Posted - 22 February 2011 : 18:01:40
Hi Richard,
No worries, appreciate your honest we are all learning, keep u,p the good work and posts!
quote:
Originally posted by Richard P
learning point thank you
|
| Richard P |
Posted - 22 February 2011 : 18:00:15
learning point thank you |
| JimmyPennywise |
Posted - 22 February 2011 : 17:55:25
Dear Richard,
I am getting confused here and a little worried on the level of expertise.
As Tracey very diligently suggests, see her post and link to the database, the insolvency web site does have a BRU/BRO register.
I invite all readers to go the site and type in, for example a typical British surname...ie Moore or Smith and then click on the details.
I am now more confused than ever.
quote:
Originally posted by Richard P
we must be looking at different areas of register so cannot answer your question further
the area i am familiar with is just the register against inidivuals names BRO / BRU not causation listed.
another part of the web site list the causation of BRO / BRU but this is not linked to named individual.
Richard
|
| glafy |
Posted - 22 February 2011 : 17:55:11
..........and it is VERY detailed, mentions gambling as well as many other reasons for BRO/U
"Good things come to those who wait".....I'm a patient person but this is taking the Mickey!! |
| glafy |
Posted - 22 February 2011 : 17:52:29
Ijust tried this and it is correct!!
[quote]Originally posted by Traceyjr
There is a separate register for BRUs, which is presumably what you were looking at Jimmy. This register has the reasons for the BRU/O and the details of the person.
Hopefully Bigal or Debtinfo will pick up this post and confirm whether drugs would be mentioned.
"Good things come to those who wait".....I'm a patient person but this is taking the Mickey!! |
|
|
| bankruptcyhelp.org.uk Forum |
© bankruptcyhelp |
 |
|
|
|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
