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| xmas baby |
Posted - 11 December 2008 : 17:19:25
Hello,
I am scared to declare myself bankrupt as I am scared to have a face to face with the OR as many of my debts (£15,000)out of a total debt of £45,000 are due to gambling. I would no doubt get a BRU/BRO, but the thought of explaining myself to the OR would be mortifying. I'd feel so ashamed, I don't know if I could go through with it. Anyone else had experiences with OR over gambling?
Thanks
xmas baby |
| 15 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| John |
Posted - 14 December 2008 : 12:05:27
Hi pix1
yes I would agree that taking steps to overcome a gambling problem such as seeking help through GA would go some way to show the OR that one has recognised there is a problem and that it is being addressed.
I would also agree that if the OR uncovers deliberate attempts to hide things such as transfers undervalue, undisclosed funds, undisclosed assets, gambling and the like then there are likely to be repercussions. After all, these acts are not in themselves criminal, but having sworn an oath and signed an affidavit to hide them from the OR could be deemed criminal if proven.
However, I would say this, I wonder how many BRU's / BRO's there would be if everyone was 100% honest as to their conduct prior to BR. I would hazard a guess that the 2% figure would rise quite dramatically. The fact is if it can't be proven many do not disclose all.
In that way BR (or at least the dealings with the OR) is similar to any other legal issue - innocent until proven guilty.That's the essence of the British justice system.
www.Bankruptcyhelp.org.uk
0800 078 9367 |
| pix1 |
Posted - 13 December 2008 : 18:16:25
John,
I agree with you that there is a possibility of a bru/bro in our friend, xmas baby's, case but hopefully she won't. In no way to i want to get someone's hopes up unnecessarily.
By the way, do you think it makes sense that sometimes people will try to hide certain things on their petition, e.g. gambling, and it may be true thet the OR will frown upon people more if they are not upfront?
To xmas baby,
the examiner will go thorugh your petition line by line, probably over the telephone and so you will be able to see it coming, so to speak, when he/she gets round to the section on gambling.
Strangely, the question on the form says words to the effect of 'have you LOST money gambling in the past two years?' anyone who has gambled on telephone or online should print out their account transactions for the past two years and make an exact calculation of what they have actually lost. i also really think that going to gamblers anonymous to show that it is something you don't want to repeat will stand you in good stead with the OR.
I hope i am not sounding too much like a lecturer and it is just my natural concern to try to be of help. |
| John |
Posted - 13 December 2008 : 12:26:06
Hi
pix1, you have clearly carried out quite a lot of research in respect of BRU's & BRO's, completely understandable as gambling was a factor.
I have no wish to alarm anyone posting on the forum and my thoughts as to the impact of BRU's/BRO's are well documented on here.
That said I would still look further into the statistics quoted. 2% doesn't seem too high but when the number of bankrupt cases is as high as it is today then 2% represents a large group.
£15k of gambling represents 33% of xmas baby's total debt whereas pix1's gambling debt of £1.5K represents just over 2% if the eventual figure reaches the higher end estimate of £70K ( I assume there's a property still to be sold).
As I said, I would never intentionally or unnecessarily alarm anyone on the forum but I personally could not confidently assure xmas baby that a BRU is not going to happen.
For me it is about setting realistic expectations.
I would agree with pix1 100% that the chances of a 15 year BRU are remote as these are usually given in much more serious circumstances.
I would, however, be very surprised indeed if there were no BRU applied. I would therefore expect one if I were in the same situation and if it doesn't happen then it's a bonus.
PS - as the intention of posts can often be misunderstood in the form of the written word I should like to make it clear that I am in no way criticising pix1's previous post. On the contrary it is a valid arguement. I merely wish to look at that arguement from the other direction as it were and in any event I bow to pix1's experience of the issue, experience which I personally don't have.
www.Bankruptcyhelp.org.uk
0800 078 9367 |
| pix1 |
Posted - 12 December 2008 : 22:44:28
xmas baby,
I believe that only 2% of bankrupts receive a bru/bro. As to gambling it may be that a bankrupt would be judged more harshly if they try to hide that they have lost money gambling. If you declare it upfront it would go somewhat in your favour. I suggest also that you close any online or telephone gambling accounts prior to petitioning bankruptcy. Perhaps even joining gamblers anonymous would look good. I lost £1500 gambling and it was on my form for the bankruptcy. this was out of a total debt of £35-70k. I did not get a bru/bro. You can search bru's/bro's on the insolvency service website. Type in a common name like Smith or Taylor. Various types of misconduct are listed and it is a bit hit or miss how long people's bru's/bro's last. My gut feeling is that you might not even get one if you are upfront about your losses or, if you do get one, it is highly likely to be for between 2 and 5 years rather than 15 years. The longer bru's/bro's tend to be for major con artists (like people hiding property they own abroad) or extremely reckless people. |
| xmas baby |
Posted - 12 December 2008 : 16:35:42
I don't think I could involve my sister as she doesn't know about my potential bankruptcy and she would never forgive me. I would rather try and keep it quiet from her (although my mum does know). I will see if my friend can set up a bank account in their name and deposit my wages into that as you have suggested. Then, once I am bankrupt or in an IVA, I can set up a new bank account and deposit both our wages into that. Just as long as this would be acceptable to the OR or IP.
Thanks again John, for all your good advice. I don't know what I would've done without this forum and everybodys help. Hopefully, one day I might be able to help others out who are going through the same situation as me.
Here's to that day!!
Keith |
| John |
Posted - 12 December 2008 : 16:25:14
Hi
your friend could utilise your new account once it is up and running.
Perhaps your sister could help in the meantime in respect of both of your salaries, after all it would only be monies going in not out, so she need not be concerned. She could then pass your money to you and your friends money to them.
www.Bankruptcyhelp.org.uk
0800 078 9367 |
| xmas baby |
Posted - 12 December 2008 : 16:15:43
Sorry to keep inundating you with questions, John. Yes, what you suggest sounds the most sensible. However, once I become bankrupt, would it be okay for my friend to redeposit their wages into my bank account or would this be frowned upon by the OR? Obviously their wages would be there to pay off our shared bills and then I would give them any moneys left over (in cash) as their own disposable income, indepedent of mine.
Failing that, and if they are unable to open a bank account themselves (for whatever reason), then I suppose the only other way for them to receive their wages, would be to obtain a cheque for their wages and cash it at a bank. Not sure if this is possible though.
Keith |
| John |
Posted - 12 December 2008 : 16:05:04
Hi
your bank account would be frozen when bankruptcy is declared which would clearly cause a problem.
I would suggest your friend opens a new account and, if they are trustworthy, you redirect your salary into their new account until you are bankrupt after which you can look to open a new account in your sole name, perhaps with the Co-op, and then redirect your salary payments to that account.
That way the flow of monies will not be affected by the bankruptcy.
www.Bankruptcyhelp.org.uk
0800 078 9367 |
| xmas baby |
Posted - 12 December 2008 : 15:59:44
Thank you John, that's one weight off my mind. I was so worried I would land my sister in trouble too. My friend currently has their wages paid into my account as they don't have a bank account (I do not know the reason why, maybe they are unable to have a bank account for some reason) and it seemed the most sensible thing as we share the household bills and all the direct debits (rent, electric, council tax) are all set up in my account. Would it be a good idea for them to separate their wages from mine and get their own bank account, prior to me going bankrupt? I would rather them to continue paying their wages into my bank account, but maybe this would not be acceptable to a OR or IP?
What do you think?
Keith |
| John |
Posted - 12 December 2008 : 15:51:25
Hi
no you don't need to mention it as it is not your debt, it's your sisters albeit you have spent the money. This arrangement between you and your sister is informal and given a 3rd party is willing to take over the repayments on that informal arrangement, and as the repayments would cease coming from you that's fine.
www.Bankruptcyhelp.org.uk
0800 078 9367 |
| xmas baby |
Posted - 12 December 2008 : 15:36:58
Thank you for the advice John. I am certainly thinking along the lines of bankruptcy and to be honest, although the prospect of a long BRU doesn't sound very good, at least I can make a new start after 3 years, albeit without any credit for the foreseable future. The only other thing that bothers me is that my sister helped me out a few months back as she took out a loan in her name and I pay her back £170 per month over the next 4.5 years. I assume this would need to be mentioned to the OR, however I would need to continue paying her this monthly sum. A friend has offered to take on this payment for me, so would I still need to mention this to the OR, even though I will not be making the payments myself?
Thanks
Keith |
| John |
Posted - 12 December 2008 : 15:15:55
Hi
I can appreciate why you are apprehensive to declare bankruptcy on the basis that you will almost certainly be required to explain your debt face to face with the Official Receiver's examiner.
I have no way of knowing the nature of the individual you will meet so cannot reassure you as to that persons demeanour.
That upshot is that a BRU is a very real prospect the length of which, in respect of gambling, will be decided upon given the sum lost, the length of time it took to lose this sum and how recently the gambling stopped.
From the information you have posted it would appear that, using these criteria, it could be quite a lengthy BRU, the maximum being 15 years.
That said a BRU in itself has little effect on most of us.
Moving away from the BRU and concentrating on the debt, bankruptcy would appear to be the option and will at least rid you of all the headaches that come with mounting debt that cannot be repaid.
No more letters, no more phone calls.
If you should like to have an informal chat I would be pleased for you to contact me. Just call the 0800 helpline number and ask for me by name.
If you call today or over the weekend, leave your name (Gally) and contact number and I would happily call you on Monday. If there is a particular part of the day that is best please say so in your message, I will call.
www.Bankruptcyhelp.org.uk
0800 078 9367 |
| xmas baby |
Posted - 12 December 2008 : 14:54:30
Yes, it was over 1 year, give or take a month or so, ending November this year. I have not gambled for nearly a month and have arranged to go to counselling. Until a year ago, I didn't gamble at all and the past year has been very stressful, especially with the death of my dad and I think I used gambling as a way of escaping from everything. How wrong I was.
Keith |
| John |
Posted - 12 December 2008 : 14:21:49
Hi
so the gambling was over a period of one year.
When did that year end?
www.Bankruptcyhelp.org.uk
0800 078 9367 |
| xmas baby |
Posted - 12 December 2008 : 12:30:33
Hello John,
The gambling debts amount to £9,000 over 6 months period and the remaining £6,000 over a further 6 months. The were mostly cash withdrawals on the credit card. On top of that, my other debts amount to £30,000 over several years, which I have never seemed to be able to pay off other than the monthly minimum amounts.
Keith |
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