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sueann
Junior Member
United Kingdom
300 Posts |
 Posted - 20 April 2009 : 17:32:00
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I have just found out today that I am being made redundant at the end of June just 4 weeks away from completing the term of my BR, with regards to redundancy pay during the BR period can this be taken off me or is that just for windfalls as I have read that redundancy money is considered compensation for loss or earnings.
I am only expecting statutory maybe a little more if my negotiation skills are up to scratch. |
Edited by - sueann on 20 April 2009 18:34:55 |
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John
New Member
United Kingdom
73 Posts |
Posted - 20 April 2009 : 19:02:23
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Hi
I'm afraid it will be the decision of your particular examiner. As an asset it is definitely claimable by the OR. However you do have to live so you will need to inform the examiner.
John White
England Jackman & Spacey |
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sueann
Junior Member
United Kingdom
300 Posts |
Posted - 20 April 2009 : 19:09:14
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Thank you.
Suprised! since when is redundancy an asset!!! looking on the paperwork the OR gave me there is no mention of informing them of redundancy only an increase in pay and with only 4 weeks to go.... far as I am concerned this is not a windfall and I have not been informed by the OR to inform them of being made redundant. |
Edited by - sueann on 20 April 2009 19:10:53 |
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sueann
Junior Member
United Kingdom
300 Posts |
Posted - 21 April 2009 : 09:12:27
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sorry about the above 'rant' post i was realing from 2 shocks yesterday, can't belive just got my life sorted out with my BR and this drops on my lap.
Can a professional please advise me; If I am made redunant at the end of June but did not receive my redundancy pay until after the completition of my BR 5 weeks later can this still be taken off me?! It is quite possible that my company will accommodate me by delaying my actual redundancy pay by the 5 weeks., or will the OR take the actual redundancy date? Am I correct in thinking that if I am not receiving redundacy pay until after BR the OR doesnt even need to be informed because I have not been in receipt of any monies?
FYI I will not be making any changes to my IPA once I am redundant I intend to just keep paying the full amount regardless.
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Daniel Griffiths
Junior Member
United Kingdom
268 Posts |
Posted - 21 April 2009 : 09:34:03
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Hi Sueann I have dug out some information which may help you as I have a client in a similar situation
Although I cannot comment on how an official receiver will deal with a redundancy payment in a specific case I can tell what guidance is given to them in the Technical Manual. Ultimately any decision is for the official receiver to make.
Paragraph 31.8.3 of the Insolvency Service Technical Manual says:
Any redundancy payment or payment in lieu of notice should not be treated as income but may be claimed as after-acquired property. However, the official receiver, as trustee, should be satisfied, by contacting the bankrupt’s former employer if necessary, that the amount claimed as after-acquired property does not include any amount payable in respect of wages (which must be regarded as being income).
Paragraphs 31.5.14 and 31.5.15 of the Insolvency Service Technical Manual say:
31.5.14 Redundancy payments.
A bankrupt may argue that as he/she no longer has a job, any redundancy payment he/she receives will be his/her income. Case law has established that a redundancy payment represents compensation for loss of a job: Hindle v Percival Boat Limited [1969] 1 WLR 174, and Wilson v National Coal Board [1981] SLT 67. Although the amount of the payment is related to length of service and to the level of past salary, it does not constitute compensation for loss of earnings. A redundancy payment will be made to an employee dismissed by reason of redundancy, even if that employee immediately secures another job, and even if that job is at higher wages.
Protecting and realising a redundancy payment
A redundancy payment whether received before or after the making of the bankruptcy order should not therefore be treated as income and the possible subject of an income payments agreement or income payments order but as an asset and realised accordingly.
If the bankrupt has not received the redundancy payment at the date of the bankruptcy order, the official receiver should remind the bankrupt that he/she has an obligation under the provisions of section 333 of the Insolvency Act 1986 to give the trustee notice should he/she acquire any property and that this includes the receipt of any redundancy payment. This reminder should be confirmed in writing. Where possible, the official receiver should obtain details of the payer, if it is a private employer or the Redundancy Payments Directorate if payment is to be made under the Employment Rights Act 1996, and arrange that the redundancy payment be made directly to the trustee.
I hope that this is of help to you.
Daniel Griffiths
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sueann
Junior Member
United Kingdom
300 Posts |
Posted - 21 April 2009 : 09:58:27
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Thank you kindly for your reply I have already refered to these yesterday.
Protecting and realising a redundancy payment
A redundancy payment whether received before or after the making of the bankruptcy order should not therefore be treated as income and the possible subject of an income payments agreement or income payments order but as an asset and realised accordingly.
If the bankrupt has not received the redundancy payment at the date of the bankruptcy order, the official receiver should remind the bankrupt that he/she has an obligation under the provisions of section 333 of the Insolvency Act 1986 to give the trustee notice should he/she acquire any property and that this includes the receipt of any redundancy payment. This reminder should be confirmed in writing. Where possible, the official receiver should obtain details of the payer, if it is a private employer or the Redundancy Payments Directorate if payment is to be made under the Employment Rights Act 1996, and arrange that the redundancy payment be made directly to the trustee.
The above in red does not effect me as I am not receiving a redundancy payment before or during my BR period, I was made BR beginning Aug 08.
I am now painfully aware (which is simiply immoral) that redundancy is not treated as loss of earnings and will be taken off you.
What I am asking is; if I am made redundant at the end of June (during my BR period) BUT I do not receive my redundancy package until my after my BR is COMPLETED I am in effect not in receipt of any monies during my BR period. this is what I need some plain English advice on to help me on Thursday with my employers, but I thank you. |
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Daniel Griffiths
Junior Member
United Kingdom
268 Posts |
Posted - 21 April 2009 : 10:10:44
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I believe that if the the payment/windfall was due pre discharge from bankruptcy but paid post discharge then it is claimable by the trustee in bankruptcy similar to any other winfall as the event happened during the period of bankruptcy, otherwise all windfalls could easily be arranged to be paid post discharge.
Daniel Griffiths |
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sueann
Junior Member
United Kingdom
300 Posts |
Posted - 21 April 2009 : 11:12:55
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OK so what I need to try and do then is negotiate with my company into making my official date of redundancy on the 7th Aug which is 2 days after discharge of my BR without any further cost to them. I may be able to swing this, wish me luck!
I have slogged my guts out for this company for 9 years and can't bear the thought of losing out on my money with only 5 weeks to spare |
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Daniel Griffiths
Junior Member
United Kingdom
268 Posts |
Posted - 21 April 2009 : 11:29:16
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Thats my girl
Daniel Griffiths |
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Mspraise1
Junior Member
United Kingdom
204 Posts |
Posted - 22 April 2009 : 17:34:17
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I really understand your position because that happened to me also. I was made redundant before my BK and we lived off that money ie paid our living expenses mortgage and all that, when the money came to an end I declared BK. Now I am being told even though we have proven that the money was spent on living expenses that my husband who is not BK is responsible for half the bills and since I paid for most of them over the last 3 months they want half the money back. I think its criminal you have no job and live off the money given to you because of that and they want to take it.
Will OH said ok fine if I am responsible for half then its only fair that this is to be applicable to all the bills he paid during that period too and I need to pay my half of those also. So you cannot say ok we you pay half the bills and you want the rest my husband should have paid back, that means everything he has paid out will need to be split down the middle too. This is not how finances work in a family. You get paid and the money gets spent on the bills we don't say oh this bit is mine money and this bit is your money, well at least we do not do this in my house. It put together to deal with our responsibilities.
I got notice pay also and from what I can understand they are entitled to the whole redundancy package whether its notice pay or not. They see it as an asset and as such they want it.
You are already down on your face and now you're being kicked whilst down. That's how I feel about it and not only that I have experienced a really horrible horrible caseworker to top it all. How much more can a human being take.
Good luck I hope you can keep some of the money. |
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sueann
Junior Member
United Kingdom
300 Posts |
Posted - 22 April 2009 : 18:58:48
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Thank you for your good luck wishes Mspraise1 and so sorry to hear what happened to you.
We have the big bosses coming tomorrow. This news of them being able to take that money has left me so devastated I am feeling ill and unable to sleep I think that the only thing I am going to be able to claim is incapacity benefit because after they have gutted me of which I see as compensation for loss of earnings I just cant see any future at the moment, due to BR I have no savings. Not even the tax man or NI can touch Redundancy what gives them the right, I am so angry I feel like taking this to parliament if I could think straight. I am single live alone and have no other source of income to help.
Yes I too feel like I have been kicked whilst down.
To be honest as it is only 5 weeks I may not bother telling them and see what happens, if they find out well I cant be in anymore s**t than I am now.
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Edited by - sueann on 22 April 2009 19:03:35 |
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Mspraise1
Junior Member
United Kingdom
204 Posts |
Posted - 22 April 2009 : 19:09:45
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Some of the information I have read on here is actually confusing. Some say that the OR can take the whole reundany money and some say they cannot take the notice part of the redundancy because that is income. That is money you would have been paid if they made you work your notice.
But I have read posts on here from the OR guidelines stating that it does not matter if its notice pay or not they are entitled to take the whole thing. What bothers me is, I was only paid the statutory amount what is allowed by the government, so my package was not enhanced and yet the OR can have this money. Like you I have no savings and we will be trying to live off one salary a family of 4 and now that we have spent the money paying our bills they want to claw back half of it. I find the whole thing confusing. I cannot find any black and white guidelines about this and it appears to depend upon the individual OR feelings on the matter.
I will try posting a topic for clarification on this topic. |
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sueann
Junior Member
United Kingdom
300 Posts |
Posted - 22 April 2009 : 19:32:18
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I have contacted Watchdog to see if they take up the matter. My company will be giving me more than my contracted notice period so basically all mine will be redundancy pay.
I am not going to contact my OR as I am a matter of weeks to the end of my BR, I do not intent to reduce my IPA I'll pay out of my redundancy pay, if it hits the fan I will play dumb that I didn't consider redundancy as an ASSET!!!!!!!!! therefore didnt feel the need to contact them, they cant do anything more to make me feel worse than I do already.
Nice to meet you by the way Mspraise1. |
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Mspraise1
Junior Member
United Kingdom
204 Posts |
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sueann
Junior Member
United Kingdom
300 Posts |
Posted - 23 April 2009 : 15:37:07
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OK I have the best news, I sat down today with our CEO and HR Director and told them about my BR problem and they have agreed although the office is closing mid-June that they are going to keep me on payroll (whilst at home ) until 5th August the day I am discharged from BR and they are going to make me officially redundant on 7th August if I have any problems they have even offered to throw in any legal fees.
Can't describe how I am feeling at the moment |
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Skippy
forum expert
United Kingdom
3290 Posts |
Posted - 23 April 2009 : 15:42:43
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That's really good news Sueann - obviously not that you are losing your job, but because your company are going to help you xxx
Tomorrow is a mystery, yesterday is history, today is the present, a gift to make the most of.
View my blog at http://skippy13.blogs.bankruptcyhelp.org.uk/
22 IPA payments made, 14 to go - on the home straight! |
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Topic |
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Redundancy whilist BR advice needed
