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sarahhoughton
Starting Member
22 Posts |
 Posted - 18 April 2011 : 13:46:39
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Hello all
I have read the many threads below regarding the new IPA rules and IPOQ forms but I can't seem to find the answer to my questions. I declared myself BR on 28/08/10 and had a NT IPA which I finished paying in MArch this year. I have received a IPOQ form yesterday in the post and my circumstances haven't really change other than the usual increases in things like Car/House Insurance, Petrol expenses.
I have wrote a list down of all my Income and Expenditure and although I haven't had a payrise this year, the increase in my monthly direct debits I am paying out of my food budget allowance if that makes sense. My questions are as follows:-
1) Will my income and expenditure be assessed under the old rules of £100.00 month disposable income before paying an IPA?
2) Can someone please post the link regarding what allowances you are allowed to claim for?
3) I currently pay £50.00 per month for a mortgage protection/life insurance Policy. I presume that the OR had allowed this policy to continue as part of my expenditure because they allowed me to purchase their interest in it back from them for £50.00. Could the OR decide that I am no longer allowed to claim this Policy as a monthly expense when they allowed it back in April?
Thank you
Sarah |
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Bigal4787
forum expert
United Kingdom
641 Posts |
Posted - 18 April 2011 : 15:00:17
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Hi Sarah,
in answer to your questions:
1.You will be assessed under the old rules, but remember that where it was an allowance of £100 disposable income, this would have attracted an IPA of £50 per month (the minimum that could be collected at that time).
2.This link may help, which gives other links to the relevant expenditure:
http://insolvency.gov.uk/freedomofinformation/technical/TechnicalManual/Ch25-36/Chapter31/part7/part4/part_4.htm
If there is anything you don't understand in it, just ask!
3.As it is a life insurance policy, as well as a mortgage protection policy, and you've purchased your interest back, it should be able to be shown as one of your insurance expenditures.
Hope this helps
Big Al
Insolvency examiner with the Insolvency service from April 2008 - July 2010.
If you need help completing SOA's(statement of affairs) or PIQ's(preliminary information questionnaire) if you've been declared bankrupt, or anything else and you're within 30 miles or so of Warrington, then please contact me via my contact details in the expert page for futher details"
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sarahhoughton
Starting Member
22 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2011 : 18:11:56
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Hello BigAl. Thank you for the information you have told me. I submitted my forms and supporting evidence and didnt hear a thing back so I thought it best to contact them to see if there was a problem. I contacted the RTLU in Stoke and was told that on review I would be subject to an Ipa under the new rules and I would be receiving paperwork in the next few weeks confirming details. I queried this and was told that it is at there descresion which rules they use. Do you know if that is correct? Can I ask them to tell me what my DI was in my original assessment and what of my allowances they are not allowing me to claim anymore?o The lady I spoke to on the telephone wasnt that helpful and kept saying The papereork would explain everything. Has anyone else ever heard this ir has any suggestions.
Thank you |
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moodybluetwo
Junior Member
156 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2011 : 18:43:29
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I have posted this before..it is from the IS own manual.
31.7.27 Calculation of contribution to be claimed under a new IPA/IPO assessed on or after 1 December 2010
Following an assessment of the real disposable income (the income remaining after all expenditure necessary to finance the reasonable domestic needs of the bankrupt and his/her family has been taken into account, see paragraph 31.7.23), where the initial assessment is made on or after 1 December 2010 (regardless of the date of the bankruptcy order) and the bankrupt has surplus income of £20 or more, the full amount of this surplus income should be sought by way of monthly payments under an IPA (or an IPO if an IPA cannot be agreed). As the official receiver is seeking to recover the full amount of the surplus income, it is essential to ensure that each individual’s circumstances are carefully examined and all available information has been taken into account with regard to the individual's income and expenditure. Reference should be made to the guidance figures available in the HES which provides average expenditure figures for various household combinations and also Part 3 regarding income to be considered and Part 4 regarding expenditure to be considered.
If your "initial assessment” was before 1st December 2010 I would suggest an IPA is not enforceable under the new rules. |
Edited by - moodybluetwo on 03 May 2011 18:45:01 |
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sarahhoughton
Starting Member
22 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2011 : 16:01:43
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Thank you moodybluetwo.
Does that mean I can challenge or appeal the decision if the OR has decided that an IPA is appropriate under the new rules and not the old ones? I can bearly meet ends meet as I stand at the minute so god knows how I will be able to pay an IPA as well.
The only expenditure I think may be disallowed is my mortgage protection but can they disallow something that they previously allowed? I will be seriously annoyed if they allowed the policy, charged me £50 to purchase there interest back and then under the new rules they disallow it!!!
Has anyone any ideas on how i should proceed!?
Thank you |
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Bigal4787
forum expert
United Kingdom
641 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2011 : 00:11:34
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Hi Sarah,
As far as I understand it from my old OR, is that if you were bankrupt before 1st Dec 2010, and assessed before 1st Dec then the technical manual clearly states that you will be assessed under the old rules. The only way they could claim this would be if your were bankrupt before 1st Dec 2010, but not assessed until after 1st Dec.
If I were in the same situation I would challenge it, as the RTLU just can't use discretion to decide which way they're going to apply the rules, and tell them to go for an IPO if they think they're correct. I would think that a Judge presented with the relevant extract from the tech manual, would have to say that they would have to apply the old rules.
The following link gives OR's guidance on IPA assessments made before 1st Decemebr, which states that the old allowance be used not the new one. The trouble is that RTLU's unlike a normalOR office are only there to generate as much income as possible, and will fob you off with anything(such as the discretion excuse). Here's the link:
http://insolvency.gov.uk/freedomofinformation/technical/TechnicalManual/Ch25-36/Chapter31/part7/part7/part_7.htm#31.7.161
Hope it helps
Big Al
Insolvency examiner with the Insolvency service from April 2008 - July 2010.
If you need help completing SOA's(statement of affairs) or PIQ's(preliminary information questionnaire) if you've been declared bankrupt, or anything else and you're within 30 miles or so of Warrington, then please contact me via my contact details in the expert page for futher details"
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sarahhoughton
Starting Member
22 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2011 : 15:57:14
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Hello and thank you once again BigAl. So basically what my understanding is of this IPA rule change is that under the old rules I did not have the disposable income for an IPA so if my circumstances have not changed which they havent I will not be liable for one at this review stage? My income and expenditure has not changed at all.
I have got a feeling this insurance policy could be a problem
Thank you
Sarah |
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Bigal4787
forum expert
United Kingdom
641 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2011 : 23:48:26
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That should be the case, as under the old rules you were allowed £100, but of course that would result in an IPA of £50, leaving £50 disposable income unlike post 1 Dec 2010, so you should be the same.
The problem maybe that it was an examiner at an OR office who carried out the assessment, who are not as ruthless as those at an RTLU ( they don't interview etc, they just assess whether they can get money out of people), and they will see mortgage protection as not being a reasonable need towards the domestic needs of the bankrupt.
This is the problem, as you get say in Liverpool where I worked, that a bankrupt could retain a car up to £2,000 in value as long as it satisfied the criteria, yet in other areas, they would only allow up to £1,000, and so this can be transposed to other areas, very erratic.
Hope this helps.
Big Al
Insolvency examiner with the Insolvency service from April 2008 - July 2010.
If you need help completing SOA's(statement of affairs) or PIQ's(preliminary information questionnaire) if you've been declared bankrupt, or anything else and you're within 30 miles or so of Warrington, then please contact me via my contact details in the expert page for futher details"
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sarahhoughton
Starting Member
22 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2011 : 10:58:17
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Thank you once again BigAl – you are a star and a fountain of knowledge that has helped to make my BR and lots of others I am sure easier!! Enough of the flirting now…..
Does the RTLU have the right and powers to disallow an expense that had been previously allowed?
My main argument with this would be that my police is a life assurance/mortgage protection policy combined. The policy had no value at all so I bought back the OR's interest in it for £50.00 and was told that the policy could continue, so I have carried on payments to the insurance company so the policy could continue to run for the last 6months.
I would feel that the OR's office have given me bad advice regarding this policy because they could have told me that it was not an allowable expense and I would have cancelled it immediately. They have sold me there interest in it back for £50.00 and I have made 6monthly payments to the insurance company only to be told 6months later that it will not be an allowable expense and I will have to cancel the Policy and pay this money in to an IPA. In affect that would mean that I have paid the OR £50.00 for the policy and £300 to my insurance company over the last 6months which was money wasted which I could have paid into an IPA.
Can I just be clear that I am not in anyway trying to avoid an IPA, I will just be annoyed at how my BR case has been handled by the OR in that one office has one set of rules and another office has a different set.
If I had known this was going to happen I would have thrown my house in to the BR as well right from the start because it would all have been sorted now but I thought it best to try and stay in my property which is heavily in negative equity.
Also I was told that paperwork was on its way to me and as yet I haven't received a thing!!!
So annoying!!
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Bigal4787
forum expert
United Kingdom
641 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2011 : 00:14:32
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Hi Sarah,
Glad that that mine and other experts posts are of use and make life easier for you in difficult times...
This is the extract from the realms of the technical manual:
Other general household expenditure such as hairdressing, family holidays and additional allowances for pet expenses: food, insurance etc. should be considered on an individual basis. No amounts should be included for these types of expenditure where it cannot be evidenced that the expenditure is fulfilling a reasonable domestic need given the particular circumstances of the bankrupt and his/her family.
In respect of insurance, what it is saying is that the expenditure must fulfil a reasonable domestic need, in this case I would say, is the reasonable domestic need is that in the unlikely event of anyone's death, the insurance is a reasonable domestic need, as it will ensure that the reasonable domestic needs of your family are met in the event of any untimely demise.
In the HES(household expenditure survey) insurance is down as an expense that can be considered, on an individual basis, just see what they say, ultimately if they disagree, you can always challenge it, and let the court decide, this is where the IS has to decide is the cost of going to court worth it?( as my old boss said!)
Big Al
Insolvency examiner with the Insolvency service from April 2008 - July 2010.
If you need help completing SOA's(statement of affairs) or PIQ's(preliminary information questionnaire) if you've been declared bankrupt, or anything else and you're within 30 miles or so of Warrington, then please contact me via my contact details in the expert page for futher details"
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Old IPA rules question
