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stephen.m
Junior Member
173 Posts |
 Posted - 10 July 2008 : 22:03:11
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Before I was bankrupt I gave a sum of money to my daughter to help renovation of her house in France, the OR has now placed a BRU on me and I believe is going to pursue for the money. Can they do this and how do they go about it.
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melanie_giles
Senior Member
1191 Posts |
Posted - 10 July 2008 : 22:10:50
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Hi stephen
Were you insolvent when you gave your daughter the money? And how much was paid to her?
For an informal chat about any financial difficulties, or advice as to the options available, I can be contacted via my website - www.melaniegiles.com |
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stephen.m
Junior Member
173 Posts |
Posted - 10 July 2008 : 22:30:24
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Hi Melanie,
I was not insolvent at the time I gave her the money but I was not working through ill health.
I gave her 23K over a number of months to pay builders etc.
Stephen
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melanie_giles
Senior Member
1191 Posts |
Posted - 10 July 2008 : 22:40:09
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It is possible that the OR may seek to claim to have an interest in your daughter's property in view of the nature of your payments to her, or claim that you made her a loan which is now repayable. How much do you now actually owe to your own creditors? And do you know why the OR is seeking a BRU which you have to agree to.
For an informal chat about any financial difficulties, or advice as to the options available, I can be contacted via my website - www.melaniegiles.com |
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stephen.m
Junior Member
173 Posts |
Posted - 10 July 2008 : 22:56:24
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The money I gave was not a loan.
I owe my creditors (credit cards/loans) about 40k
The reason for the BRU which will be for 6 years is because I gave money to her in stead of paying the credit cards off.
At the time I was paying the credit cards on time (as usual) and planed to start work again.
It was only some months later when I was signed of from working until 2012 that I realised that I could not meet all my debts etc and after advice from CCCS I petitioned for my own bankruptcy.
Can they claim an interest in her property even when its in another country? How do they do this?
quote:
Originally posted by melanie_giles
It is possible that the OR may seek to claim to have an interest in your daughter's property in view of the nature of your payments to her, or claim that you made her a loan which is now repayable. How much do you now actually owe to your own creditors? And do you know why the OR is seeking a BRU which you have to agree to.
For an informal chat about any financial difficulties, or advice as to the options available, I can be contacted via my website - www.melaniegiles.com
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John
New Member
United Kingdom
73 Posts |
Posted - 10 July 2008 : 22:59:52
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Hi stephen.m
the notification of a BRU doesn't, in itself, mean the OR has decided to pursue monies (value) tied up in your daughter's property.
That is a seperate issue.
The BRU means you have 21 days to agree to the details of the BRU.
If you agree you are effectively pleading guilty to the charge of misconduct and you will not need to appear in court. You will receive a restriction of between 2 and 15 years.
Are you able to divulge, in summary, the content of the BRU?
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melanie_giles
Senior Member
1191 Posts |
Posted - 10 July 2008 : 23:01:24
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They may claim that because you have invested money in your daughter's property that you have gained a beneficial interest - and it does not matter if the property is abroad. This is not really worth worrying about at present, and if a claim is made you can then take appropriate professional advice. I am sure that this would have already been mentioned to you by the OR, if they did feel that they had grounds to pursue your daughter.
For an informal chat about any financial difficulties, or advice as to the options available, I can be contacted via my website - www.melaniegiles.com |
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John
New Member
United Kingdom
73 Posts |
Posted - 10 July 2008 : 23:15:09
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I agree with Melanie here, whilst you should not concern yourself at this stage as to the likelyhood of the OR pursuing any interest you may have in your daughter's property, the BRU is very real and needs to be dealt with.
Whether the £23K was a loan or a gift is irrelevant, your funds were still diverted from you to your daughter when you were in debt.
Other points that should impact on the OR's decision are:-
When did you gift the money to your daughter?
When did you become ill?
When were you first aware that a return to work would not be possible for some years?
Where did the funds passed to your daughter come from, your own capital or off the credit cards?
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stephen.m
Junior Member
173 Posts |
Posted - 10 July 2008 : 23:46:50
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To answer both yours and Melanies questions;
The BRU is states that I gave money to my daughter in determent to my main creditors;
The money was gifted 18 months before I was Bankrupt.
I became ill in 2005 and sold our property in 2006, the money I gave to my daughter came from the house sale, during this time I maintained all my debt payments as I was convinced that I would get better and get another job.
In 2007 whilst living in a friends caravan I was signed off until 2012, at this point my wife left me. I continued to pay my way for a few months then realised that I could not continue and took advice from CCCS who said my only option was bankruptcy.
I had to move from the caravan, mainly because the OR wanted details of the owner, I was told to leave. My only option was to move in with my daughter.
Amazing how life turns round in a short space of time.
Steve
quote:
Originally posted by Assist
I agree with Melanie here, whilst you should not concern yourself at this stage as to the likelyhood of the OR pursuing any interest you may have in your daughter's property, the BRU is very real and needs to be dealt with.
Whether the £23K was a loan or a gift is irrelevant, your funds were still diverted from you to your daughter when you were in debt.
Other points that should impact on the OR's decision are:-
When did you gift the money to your daughter?
When did you become ill?
When were you first aware that a return to work would not be possible for some years?
Where did the funds passed to your daughter come from, your own capital or off the credit cards?
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indy2005
Junior Member
458 Posts |
Posted - 11 July 2008 : 00:04:35
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quote:
Originally posted by stephen.m
To answer both yours and Melanies questions;
The BRU is states that I gave money to my daughter in determent to my main creditors;
The money was gifted 18 months before I was Bankrupt.
I became ill in 2005 and sold our property in 2006, the money I gave to my daughter came from the house sale, during this time I maintained all my debt payments as I was convinced that I would get better and get another job.
In 2007 whilst living in a friends caravan I was signed off until 2012, at this point my wife left me. I continued to pay my way for a few months then realised that I could not continue and took advice from CCCS who said my only option was bankruptcy.
I had to move from the caravan, mainly because the OR wanted details of the owner, I was told to leave. My only option was to move in with my daughter.
Amazing how life turns round in a short space of time.
Steve
quote:
Originally posted by Assist
I agree with Melanie here, whilst you should not concern yourself at this stage as to the likelyhood of the OR pursuing any interest you may have in your daughter's property, the BRU is very real and needs to be dealt with.
Whether the £23K was a loan or a gift is irrelevant, your funds were still diverted from you to your daughter when you were in debt.
Other points that should impact on the OR's decision are:-
When did you gift the money to your daughter?
When did you become ill?
When were you first aware that a return to work would not be possible for some years?
Where did the funds passed to your daughter come from, your own capital or off the credit cards?
Sounds horrible. I am watching this with interest as I have a lottery thread going. I gave my wife 10K of a lottery win I got last August from work. We spent it (oops) and Melanie said that this wasnt important as I could explain how we spent it. Reading this thread, it makes me think the OR might say I gifted money to my wife to the detriment of my creditors and then they will ask for it back.
Sorry to hijack the thread but if you were treated like this for money you gave to your daughter 18 months before BR, I can see similar action for me for actions I did last August.
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John
New Member
United Kingdom
73 Posts |
Posted - 11 July 2008 : 00:18:01
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I'm not the examiner of course but looking at the timing of the various events I feel he is being harsh in proposing a 6 year restriction.
However, timings aside, the fact is, following the sale of your property you had the wherewithall to settle part, most or all of your debt and you were already not earning. It may well, with the benefit of hindsigt, have been prudent to do just that.
But without a crystal ball you could not have known that your incapacity would be extended for 5 years.
I guess the choice is yours really Steve. Sign and accept the 6 year restriction. Or go to court and plead your case in the knowledge that it is possible the restriction is extended beyond 6 years if the court finds in the OR's favour.
Another alternative is to request time with the examiner (but this needs to be done yesterday), in person or on the phone, and delicately remind him of the timings. Then hear what he has to say.
I would also then hint that you are greatly troubled by the proposal and wonder if it would benefit you to take the matter to the court.
If the examiner knows he is, perhaps, pushing things a bit. he has time to revise his decision. |
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melanie_giles
Senior Member
1191 Posts |
Posted - 11 July 2008 : 08:24:50
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I would be careful about signing the restriction undertaking without the benefit of legal advice. If you accept the undertaking, this could be seen as acceptance of misallocations of funds at the time you paid your daughter, and could strengthen the OR's case to pursue monies from her.
For an informal chat about any financial difficulties, or advice as to the options available, I can be contacted via my website - www.melaniegiles.com |
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Suzanne
Average Member
United Kingdom
869 Posts |
Posted - 11 July 2008 : 09:18:27
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Sorry to be the voice of doom and gloom.
But. By the time the BRU has been presented to the bankrupt it has been through a rigorous test process by a specialist team in London. They check the wording, that the case can be proved without a shadow of a doubt, and then they decide on the length of the BRU. At this point the examiner has no further say in it. Because of this process it is very very rare that when challenged in court it results in a favourable result for the bankrupt.
Have you been informed that the case is being passed to a Trustee or to RTLU?
Suzanne Stocker
Bankruptcy Manager
Jones Giles Ltd
www.jonesgiles.co.uk
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JulianDonnelly
Junior Member
United Kingdom
325 Posts |
Posted - 11 July 2008 : 10:31:52
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Hi Suzanne,
Many thanks for the insider information. It casts a whole new light on BRO's. Keep up the great work!
Regards
Julian Donnelly
Spokesperson for www.Bankruptcyhelp.org.uk |
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John
New Member
United Kingdom
73 Posts |
Posted - 11 July 2008 : 11:39:47
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Last year I was involved in a case where the OR wanted to apply a 15 year restriction on the client. And I have to say by comparison to Stephen's tale the client had been a very very naughty boy.
By going to court and pleading the client's case he ended up with a 7 year restriction. Hence my thought process that in Stephen's case 6 years is harsh and not to defend guarantee's 6 years.
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Suzanne
Average Member
United Kingdom
869 Posts |
Posted - 11 July 2008 : 13:25:20
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Hi Assist
You must have done a very good job for that client as this is a very rare occurance.
Suzanne Stocker
Bankruptcy Manager
Jones Giles Ltd
www.jonesgiles.co.uk
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Topic |
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Can the or pursue this money?
