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jj330
Starting Member
8 Posts |
 Posted - 09 September 2009 : 16:36:16
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Please,Please,can somebody help me with some answers,i was made bankrupt in october 2007 and discharged last october 2008,i signed and IPA to the value of 200 pounds per month which runs from JAN 2008 until FEB 2012,50 months in total,at the time i resided in Brazil with my ex wife an had a house there of which i agreed with my trustee to persue in the Brazilian courts for a court order to sell,in the mean time due to a very bitter divorce i was ordered by the Brazilian court to pay my ex wife maintenance way and above my income %65 or thereabouts of my net income,i in fact paid about two thirds of this amount,now in Brazil the courts are extremely tough with non payment of maintenance,and in May of this year i was threatened with an arrest warrant and immediate priso if i did not pay my arrears,this was at a court hearing dealing with both my maintenance and divorce hearings,it was suggested by the Judge that i sign my half of the house over to my ex wife in exchange for not being imprisoned and not being obligated to pay any more maintenance,o which agreed under duress more than anything else,as i lived in Brazil for more than 19 years,and believe me you would not want to spend one day there,anyway i communicated this fact to my trustee and here is his reply below >
I have spoken to ##### about the Divorce Document – He does not really need to see you. His comment is that the Divorce Document appears to state that you have given up our interest in the Brazilian property and therefore he will require an Income Contribution from you in lieu of this. Obviously we have incurred significant costs which we expected to recoup from the property and therefore ##### would like you to let me have details of your earnings together with documentary evidence, payslips, bank statements or anything which confirms the figures. If you wish to offer a voluntary contribution based on what you feel you can afford, then this will be considered otherwise we will look at your income and expenditure and let you know how much he considers you can pay and for how long.
I have absolutely no problem in making an extra contribution,bt please can someone tell me,will this mean a new IPA agreement or will this roll into my old one !!!!.
Please someone help me with this torture,
Thanks very much for any replys.
Glenn. |
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gettingoutofdebt
forum expert
2418 Posts |
Posted - 09 September 2009 : 17:40:45
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You have mentioned that you were declared BR but was this in the UK or Brazil? A lot of what you have mentioned (i.e. an IPA for 50 months, looking at your I&E to see how much you can pay and for how long, etc.) doesn't make much sense with the UK bankruptcy process.
If you were declared BR in the UK:
- Why is your IPA 50 months? Normally it is 36.
- Have you sought legal advice in Brazil regarding your divorce? If not then you should. If you don't know any good lawyers try to speak to the British Consulate. They won't be able to provide a lawyer for you as you are resident in the country but may be able to recommend one to you.
- The IPA goes up and down depending upon your income. Did you contact the OR/RTLU when you were ordered to pay some of your income to your ex-wife?
- Who is this reply from? It mentions a trustee but is the Brazilian trustee to do with the divorce or a trustee in the UK and to do with your bankruptcy? Checking your I&E to see how much you can pay and for how long doesn't make any sense in a bankruptcy and sounds more like an IPA or DMP.
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jj330
Starting Member
8 Posts |
Posted - 10 September 2009 : 14:20:52
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quote:
Originally posted by gettingoutofdebt
You have mentioned that you were declared BR but was this in the UK or Brazil? A lot of what you have mentioned (i.e. an IPA for 50 months, looking at your I&E to see how much you can pay and for how long, etc.) doesn't make much sense with the UK bankruptcy process.
If you were declared BR in the UK: YES JAN 2008
- Why is your IPA 50 months? Normally it is 36. MY TRUSTEE ASKED IF I WANTED MORE TIME TO PAY,TO WHICH I AGREED - Have you sought legal advice in Brazil regarding your divorce? YES,I ENGAGED A VERY GOOD LAWYER,AND I GOT A DIVORCE LAST MAY, If not then you should. If you don't know any good lawyers try to speak to the British Consulate. They won't be able to provide a lawyer for you as you are resident in the country but may be able to recommend one to you.
- The IPA goes up and down depending upon your income. Did you contact the OR/RTLU when you were ordered to pay some of your income to your ex-wife?,MY TRUSTEE ALREADY KNEW I WAS PAYING MAINTENANCE WHEN MY IPA WAS SET UP.
- Who is this reply from? FROM MY UK TRUSTEE ,It mentions a trustee but is the Brazilian trustee to do with the divorce or a trustee in the UK and to do with your bankruptcy? Checking your I&E to see how much you can pay and for how long doesn't make any sense in a bankruptcy and sounds more like an IPA or DMP.
SO CAN MY TRUSTEE FORCE ME TO PAY THIS MAINTENANCE MONEY THAT I WAS PAYING MY EX WIFE DIRECT TO HIM INSTEAD,DOES THIS NOT NEED TO BE DONE IN THE 12 MONTH PERIOD WHILST I WAS A NON DISCHARGED BANKRUPT !!!!,I HAVE SPOKEN TO AN INSOLVANCY EXPERT,AND HE FEELS I HAVE GROUNDS TO REFUSE THIS,I WILL GO TO THE UPCOMING MEETING WITH MY TRUSTEE AND SEE WHAT HE ASKS OR DEMANDS,AND NOT SIGN ANYTHING UNTIL I TAKE LEGAL ADVICE,,,ANY MORE ANSWERS OR ADVICE GREATLY APPRECIATED.
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RHB
Senior Member
1159 Posts |
Posted - 10 September 2009 : 16:53:46
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| Your IPA is still running so you could have your payments increased to reflect the fact that you no longer have to pay maintenance to your ex wife due to her having your stake in the house I suppose. |
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debtinfo
forum expert
2826 Posts |
Posted - 10 September 2009 : 17:10:27
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| The IPA cannot legally last for more than 36 months |
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debtinfo
forum expert
2826 Posts |
Posted - 10 September 2009 : 17:23:28
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Here is a copy of the law, look at section 5 b
Income payments agreement The following shall be inserted after section 310 of the Insolvency Act 1986 (c. 45) (income payments order)—
“310A Income payments agreement (1) In this section “income payments agreement” means a written agreement between a bankrupt and his trustee or between a bankrupt and the official receiver which provides—
(a) that the bankrupt is to pay to the trustee or the official receiver an amount equal to a specified part or proportion of the bankrupt’s income for a specified period, or
(b) that a third person is to pay to the trustee or the official receiver a specified proportion of money due to the bankrupt by way of income for a specified period.
(2) A provision of an income payments agreement of a kind specified in subsection (1)(a) or (b) may be enforced as if it were a provision of an income payments order.
(3) While an income payments agreement is in force the court may, on the application of the bankrupt, his trustee or the official receiver, discharge or vary an attachment of earnings order that is for the time being in force to secure payments by the bankrupt.
(4) The following provisions of section 310 shall apply to an income payments agreement as they apply to an income payments order—
(a) subsection (5) (receipts to form part of estate), and
(b) subsections (7) to (9) (meaning of income).
(5) An income payments agreement must specify the period during which it is to have effect; and that period—
(a) may end after the discharge of the bankrupt, but
(b) may not end after the period of three years beginning with the date on which the agreement is made.
(6) An income payments agreement may (subject to subsection (5)(b)) be varied—
(a) by written agreement between the parties, or
(b) by the court on an application made by the bankrupt, the trustee or the official receiver.
(7) The court—
(a) may not vary an income payments agreement so as to include provision of a kind which could not be included in an income payments order, and
(b) shall grant an application to vary an income payments agreement if and to the extent that the court thinks variation necessary to avoid the effect mentioned in section 310(2).”
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jj330
Starting Member
8 Posts |
Posted - 10 September 2009 : 21:56:03
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SO CAN I DEMAND TO MY TRUSTEE THAT THIS BE CHANGED TO 36 MONTHS INSTEAD OF THE CURRENT 50 MONTH THAT I ORIGINALY SIGNED !!!,THANKS FOR YOUR HELP... quote:
Originally posted by debtinfo
The IPA cannot legally last for more than 36 months
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Suzanne
Average Member
United Kingdom
869 Posts |
Posted - 11 September 2009 : 10:46:13
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hi jj330
You can only pay the Trustee what you can afford to pay over the 3 years of your IPA. They should look at your income and expenditure and base the figure you pay on this - and it should still only be 50-70% of your surplus.
You can refuse to pay it if you don't think it is fair, and they would have to take it to court to enforce it. This would then be reviewed by a Judge for fairness.
At the end of the day, despite the powers they do have, the Trustee has to act within the law. If you feel you have been treated unfairly then you can report them to their regulatory body.
Suzanne Stocker
Bankruptcy Manager
Jones Giles Ltd
www.jonesgiles.co.uk
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jj330
Starting Member
8 Posts |
Posted - 13 September 2009 : 11:29:24
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THANKS.
BUT MY TRUSTEE HAS STATED THAT HE WANTS A HIGHER VOLUNTARY CONTRIBUTION AND HE WILL DECIDE FOR HOW LONG,SO WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW IS THIS,,CAN HE START A NEW IPA,OR AS I THINK THIS MUST BE INCLUDED IN THE PRESENT IPA THAT I SIGNED WHICH HAS ANOTHER 29 MONTHS OUT OF 50 MONTHS TO GO.. |
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Skippy
forum expert
United Kingdom
3290 Posts |
Posted - 13 September 2009 : 11:45:09
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Did they give you a reason why it should be 50 months instead of 36? OK you're going to be paying more (and I'm sure all OR's would like more!) but as far as I'm aware an IPA can only last 36 months.
Tomorrow is a mystery, yesterday is history, today is the present, a gift to make the most of.
View my blog at http://skippy13.blogs.bankruptcyhelp.org.uk/
26 IPA payments made, 10 to go - on the home straight! |
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Skippy
forum expert
United Kingdom
3290 Posts |
Posted - 13 September 2009 : 11:46:44
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Also, would you mind taking the caps lock off - it's classed as shouting and makes posts difficult to read. Thanks!
Tomorrow is a mystery, yesterday is history, today is the present, a gift to make the most of.
View my blog at http://skippy13.blogs.bankruptcyhelp.org.uk/
26 IPA payments made, 10 to go - on the home straight! |
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jj330
Starting Member
8 Posts |
Posted - 15 September 2009 : 10:23:50
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Thanks,my trustee offered to extend my IPA period,and as i was green as grass at the time i agreed,obviously that was a mistake on my part.
Still i would like to know if he can make me pay more now that i am not paying maintenance to my ex-wife,as she now has my trustees half share in my property in Brazil,which i signed over under duress and with a threat of immediate imprisonment because i was not paying the full amount of maintenance that was decreed by the Brazilian courts,65% of my net salary,non payment is treated very very seriously there,much more so than in the UK.
Still I was under the impression that any changes in the IPA amount could only be made in the 12 months whilst bankrupt,and not after the discharge has been granted,is this true!!!!!,,,Thanks again for any relevent answers. |
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Suzanne
Average Member
United Kingdom
869 Posts |
Posted - 15 September 2009 : 10:56:05
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Hi
The IPA can be changed in relation to any change in your circumstances during the period of the IPA. I guess you have signed an agreement with them that they could try to enforce, however, it is only an agreement and if your circumstances are such that you cannot afford any additional money, then they would struggle to enforce an increase.
The 12 months you are referring to is that the IPA must be signed before you are discharged, other wise it cannot be applied. If an IPA is signed prior to discharge it can be changed within its term.
If you are still unhappy with the situation why not get some independant advice from a solicitor who has some insolvnecy experience, as someone needs to look into this properly for you, and check the wording on your IPA.
Suzanne Stocker
Bankruptcy Manager
Jones Giles Ltd
www.jonesgiles.co.uk
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jj330
Starting Member
8 Posts |
Posted - 15 September 2009 : 12:02:36
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Suzanne,thank you for your reply,so would it be possble for me to ask that the term be changed to 36 months and not 50 months,as this was nt explained to me at the time by my trustee !!!
Thanks |
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Suzanne
Average Member
United Kingdom
869 Posts |
Posted - 15 September 2009 : 15:05:23
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I would have a frank and open discussion with your Trustee. Let them know you are concerned about the length of the term of the IPA, and let them know what you know you can afford to pay and how long you are willing to pay it for. If they have a problem with this then you can discuss it with them to try to resolve it. If you need to, you can always say you will go back to them once you have got some legal advice.
Suzanne Stocker
Bankruptcy Manager
Jones Giles Ltd
www.jonesgiles.co.uk
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jj330
Starting Member
8 Posts |
Posted - 16 September 2009 : 10:30:04
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Suzanne,thanks again for your time and advice,i am going to see my trustee next monday,and i will have a very open and frank discussion with him,and if i am not happy with any changes he proposes,i will seek expert legal advice.
Pleae a few more things
I am now living in Portugal,and i am paying rent,which as far as i am concerned is wasted money,i know i can get a mortgage here,but how will that go down with my tustee !!!
Also has my trustee any right to ask to see my girlfriends bank statements,i do not think so !!!
Also is any of her wages taken into account with regards my circumstances !!!,she has a poorly paid job,but as i pay all the bills she saves the lions share of her wages,mostly for our future.
Once again,thanks for any relevent answers.
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